Another freight discussion

[Frankschtaldt]

Been pretty quiet in here of late (excluding the little spam attack the other day). I guess people are waiting for 1.12 to hit. I know I am!

Anyway, I was curious about freight costs and whether vehicle size or weight had any effect on it so I did a little test to check:
I started an easy game in London and made a quick and cheap micro car, sedan and full sized sedan and then opened a branch in New York. I then made 3 of each vehicle at a time (one body type each month) and sold them in New York only. So, I had the same number of vehicles shipped each month the same distance (and just to keep everything equal, sold for the same price) but the vehicles were all different weights and sizes.
The end result? Freight cost was identical for all three.

The shortcoming of my test was that all the vehicles were made from the same components so while the Full sedan was about 30% heavier than the micro they were still all under 1000kg. I might try again tonight but make the bigger car from a bigger, heavier frame to push it's weight well over the smaller car to confirm my findings over a broader weight and size range.

Anyway, I was curious so I figured other people might be as well =)

[freeman2344]

I do believe that the transportation model itself is currently quite simplified in general. I'm sure things like weight will become a factor later down the road. Shouldn't be too hard to do.

[Eric.B]

Freeman is correct, the current shipping system is pretty simple. It's just distance, year, and gas prices.

When I get around to tweaking the shipping system I'll look into adding weight/dimensions into the costs. Of course I need a better system to control shipping first however.

[Frankschtaldt]

I was curious because there's really no way of knowing if you're paying the same freight rate for all cars with the info the game gives atm (unless I've missed something) and there's been a number of games in which I've been selling certain cars well under the average freight per car rate to certain cities. In the games that I've been doing this I've been happy to make a loss on those cars because my target was volume and I was able to make up the loss on more expensive cars and high sales to low/zero freight cities.
I plan to start an elite high end company selling sports cars and such once 1.12 hits and I wanted to be able to do it all from one factory. In order to do that successfully I needed a better understanding of how freight rates worked and if I needed to cover the full cost on every vehicle or if I was paying less for smaller ones.

My experiment answered that and now you've confirmed it so I can go into my 1.12 adventures armed and ready =)

On that note, I don't know how car shipping is done but if it's anything like other shipping types it should probably be charged on a per container basis and then divide that by the number of cars that'll fit in a container.
Although, thinking about it, I'm not sure if that level of realism is really that necessary. It might be easier just to apply a 10-20% surcharge on shipping less than 5-6 cars to a city in a month and maybe a small discount for really huge numbers.

[Arakash]

On that note, I don't know how car shipping is done but if it's anything like other shipping types it should probably be charged on a per container basis and then divide that by the number of cars that'll fit in a container.
Although, thinking about it, I'm not sure if that level of realism is really that necessary. It might be easier just to apply a 10-20% surcharge on shipping less than 5-6 cars to a city in a month and maybe a small discount for really huge numbers.

That is essentially what i think as well.
As long as the actual figure is a reflection of reality, it doesn't necessarily have to be calculated based on all the factors that it would be in the real world. It just has to roughly represent them.
So as you said, a surcharge on shipping very few cars, and perhaps some reflection of economy of scale at huge numbers.

A good point in this thread raised was basing it in some part on the weight/dimensions of the vehicle.
Perhaps that should also add a extra charge.

It was mentioned in the other thread that it could be based on sea proximity and things like that, but since then im more worried that doing that would make the calculations so complex it would be hard to base decisions on them.
i.e. you would have to actually open a branch and ship cars to actually have any idea how much it would cost, rather than being able to make a good guess beforehand.

[Frankschtaldt]

I tend to agree. The game can chug at times as it is and there's still a lot more stuff yet to be included. Over complicating the freight cost equations would just make it chug more without any real gain to how the game feels to play.
Perhaps the easiest way would simply be to regigger the equation to be a cost per weight rather than cost per car with a sliding scale that reduces the cost per weight the more weight is shipped. It's not super realistic, I'd think a 1000kg car would cost more than half the freight of a 2000kg car. But it's probably close enough for our purposes.

[Geredis]

A good point in this thread raised was basing it in some part on the weight/dimensions of the vehicle.
Perhaps that should also add a extra charge.

I know this is all being done before the use of standardized shipping containers, but does size/weight really matter all that much, in the scheme of things? I mean, I figure most of the crates the cars are going into are more or less the same dimensions, and thus while weight might matter, size doesn't since even f you make a small car you still have, essentially, the same space being taken up on the ship/train you're using to transport the car from A to B.

Now, I know that smaller vehicle size also means smaller crates, and thus more crates means more cars, or more cars per the larger crates, but isn't it enough to simply assume 1:1, and that for whatever reason all containers are more or less the same size unless you're shipping what amount to oversized cars (vans, pickups, lorries, etc) and thus need more than the one or two or three or however many crates are being extrapolated as being 'normal' for transit?

I only ask since, being somewhat familiar with shipping (a relative works in inventory-control so I've picked up some through conversations there), that seems to be what makes the most sense to me, with of course there being reductions in fees as things like Conex come about and make the shipping containers reusable, even if they don't really modify the volume per single container in a meaningful enough way to, say, halve or third your shipping costs as you fit two or three cars into a single container.

As for the suggestion about 1000kg car costing half in shipping costs as a 2000kg car, you're definitely off on that. You see, for shipping, it's not weight that is often the issue (unless you're shipping things by air or on very small trains/boats where weight IS an issue) but volume...and as I just mentioned, the packing volume of a 1000kg car and a 2000kg car is going to be more or less the same. And this is because as I said, there's a certain standardization in packing so that every package is the same size, to make it easier to load, fit, and unload the materials being sent. Now, this does not say that there's no difference to the company doing the shipping between those 1000kg and 2000kg cars (there is), but the main difference is no tin price, so much as where on the ship or train they put the cargo for the optimum weight distribution since it's less about carriage weight and more about making sure that the merchant vessel or train car is not unbalanced and thus dangerous to work on/around.

[Frankschtaldt]

As for the suggestion about 1000kg car costing half in shipping costs as a 2000kg car, you're definitely off on that.

I agree, in fact, that's exactly what I said!

I'd think a 1000kg car would cost more than half the freight of a 2000kg car. But it's probably close enough for our purposes.

As for weight not being a factor, weight is definitely a factor. Containers are a standardized unit these days (I have no idea what they were like in 1900, I'd have to research that to find out but its a good point and not something I'd really thought about) and if you were clever about how you did it you could comfortably fit at least 4 full sized sedans in one 40' container, possibly more (I would think anyway) but cars are heavy things as would be the apparatus needed to tie them down and shipping containers do have a weight limit. In my personal experience as an inventory controller buying off China and Chile I regularly had to ship containers less than full because of the weight limits.

Now, I was inventory controller for a timber wholesaler which is nothing like cars so while I do have plenty of direct experience with international shipping it may not be directly relevant. Which is why I generally make statements based off my experience but attach a clause saying it's based off a different industry.

[Geredis]

Looks like I misread what you were saying, suggesting that the 1000kg car SHOULD cost half that of the 2000kg. I stand corrected.

[Frankschtaldt]

Eric has mentioned his experience in the automotive industry before. I'd be keen to know if he had anything to do with freight because I'd like to know how it is actually done.

Might see if I can do some research on it tonight.

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Actually, this has me thinking, in Australia at least it has been reasonably common for car companies to import cars in pieces and just assemble them locally. This saves on freight I imagine but complicates the production process a bit. However, I think the main reasons it's been done here is a) it lets you claim the car is "Australian built" and b) I think it avoided certain importation taxes.

This may fall into the "far too complex to really be worth it" category but figured it'd be worth bringing up. Anyone have any thoughts? Is something like this worth investigating? Has it been done anywhere other than Australia or are we just special?