01-30-2014, 04:12 AM
Before I post by big list of suggestions I've been looking at the component XML and I've noticed that a lot of engine layouts and gear box options have year="1890" (which I'm assuming is the date they are supposed to be available from) but you can't research most of them until 1901.
You'll see why I'm asking this below but tl;dr I was going to apply some of my following suggestions as a mod to this XML file and offer it for people to use but I'm wondering if there's something somewhere else that's restricting development of these things until 1901 or is it just a bug?
Any how, on to my list. I'm going to split this up into two parts, part 1 will be things that (I think) can be fixed by changing values in the component XML file and part 2 will be things that can't be. As above I intend to plan to have a go at making a mod applying all the XML changes I can but that may have to wait until Eric has made his modwiki available (I will play around with it before then but no promises of producing something useful).
Section 1 (XML modable things)
a) Available research at 1900 (start of game).
- Firstly, gearboxes are currently limited to max 3 gears at start of play but 4 should also be available. The Mercedes 35hp (which I will reference a few times in this post) had a 4 speed gearbox and it went on sale in 1901. For this to be possible (in game) research on that gearbox would need to commence in 1900.
- The following engine layouts should be available right off the bat: Single cylinder (as it is currently), Straight 2, V2, Flat 2 and Straight 4.
* The previously mentioned Mercedes 35hp was powered by a 5.9L Straight 4 and by extension, if it was possible to make straight 4's it's possible to make straight 2's (interestingly, the first ever use of a straight 3 that I can find is the 1956 Saab 93, so the availability of this layout might need to be pushed back).
* In 1889 Daimler-Maybach released their first vehicle, powered by a V2
* Karl Benz patented the flat twin in 1896
b) Old engines are too powerful
If you take a look at this thread by Arakash he points out that it isn't actually possible to make an engine with the same stats as the Model T and actually produce that low a horsepower number. Likewise, the Benz Velo had a 1L single producing 3.5hp but the lowest possible output I can get from a 1L single is 10hp. Lastly, a 5.9L Straight 4 will put out about 45hp, well over the 35hp the Mercedes linked above made.
If it is possible to alter the back end equations (as per section 2 a below) then some of this will be fixed on its own as these old engines were all fairly large capacity and very long stroke so would loose some RPM and therefore power from the equation change.
Failing this (or possible in addition to this) my suggested fix is to have different eras of "4 Stroke Gas" engine, similar to the different eras you have for electric. Three should be enough, "Early", "Mid" and "Modern" using the world wars as the change over dates as these were generally when technology advanced the quickest. I would say that "Modern" would keep the current petrol power and efficiency setting whilst early would be set somewhere around where 2 stroke is (giving 2 stroke a further downgrade in power along the way) and slotting "Mid" right in the middle.
c) Many of the engine weights and dimensions and other numbers of different engine layouts don't add up.
- A 1.5L Straight 8 is only a little longer and actually wider than a 1.5L V8 with identical settings!
- That same 1.5L Straight 8 costs nearly 4 times as much to build but less to R&D than a 1.5L Straight 2 (I would think roughly double for both would be fairer)
- Comparing the same Straight 8 and 2 again, the 8 makes less power (see section 2 A for more on this) but gets well under half the mpg of the 2 where in reality it would probably make more power, more torque and get only slightly worse milage than the twin (and definitely better mpg/hp)
Many of these issues can be fixed with some simple tweaking of the numbers in the XML files. I would also suggest getting rid of the "Single" engine layout and simply making a 1 cylinder option for the straight engine. The change in dimensions wont be much but it'll make balancing the engines against each other much easier.
Note: All of these comparisons are made with all sliders set to max with the exception of bore and stroke which are set as equal as possible while giving as close as possible volume and the weight slider which is set to minimum.
Section 2 (things that can not be fixed in XML/back end stuff)
a) Power and torque numbers are all out of whack.
Note: I originally had this in section 1 but after doing more research I've realised it's more back end than I originally thought so I moved it.....
Comparison of different engine layouts: I went and made a bunch of 1.5L engines with all the same settings to see how the different layouts changed things and the results don't quite sit right with me. My biggest issues are as follows:
Both power and torque reduced as an engine gained cylinders. I made most of the engines with square bore and stroke but to test if this was an effect of engine stroke being too big a factor in torque I made an inline 3 with the same stroke as the single and it still produced much less torque than the single.
I think some of this can be fixed by modding XML files but I think the back end equation needs to be changed to make everything work properly. Increasing an engines stroke needs to have a greater effect on slowing down max RPM for one and overall individual cylinder volume needs to have a much bigger effect on engine efficiency. I built a 6L V8 to compare to the 1.5L V8 and power was 3.65 times greater while torque was 3.75 times greater which highlights the fact that something needs adjusting as power of such a large engine should suffer much more than torque and both numbers should suffer more than they do. I would think x4 volume and identical settings would produce something more like x2.5-3 power and x3.5 torque. (Also of note, the 98mm stroke 6L V8 only revved 68RPM slower than the 62mm stroke 1.5L V8)
b) Bore and stoke limits should be higher.
Currently the bore and stroke limits of the game seem to be 128mm each (or roughly 5'). Some examples of important cars with bigger numbers than these limits are:
-The Benz Patent-Motorwagen (recognized as the first car ever) had a stroke of 160mm.
-The previously mentioned Mercedes 35hp (which didn't sell a lot but started a battle that rapidly accelerated automotive technology) had a 140mm stroke.
-The Blitzen Benz had a 200mm stroke and a 185mm bore.
- The Bugatti Type 41 Royale had a 130mm stroke
- The Bentley 4½ Litre had a 140mm stroke.
- (If you want to make trucks possible) The Kenworth T609 is powered by this engine with a bore of 137mm and a stroke of 169mm.
.... and there are many other examples.
I'm pretty sure the Blitzen Benz is easily the biggest (on a per cylinder basis) engine ever put into a car so if you can increase the bore and stroke limits up to those numbers people will be able to duplicate it and pretty much anything else ever made including many aircraft and tank engines and even some pretty chunky marine diesels.
Sorry for the wall of text. Perhaps I should have broken that up into two posts? Meh, too late now, I've been writing this for hours so I'm just posting it as it =)
You'll see why I'm asking this below but tl;dr I was going to apply some of my following suggestions as a mod to this XML file and offer it for people to use but I'm wondering if there's something somewhere else that's restricting development of these things until 1901 or is it just a bug?
Any how, on to my list. I'm going to split this up into two parts, part 1 will be things that (I think) can be fixed by changing values in the component XML file and part 2 will be things that can't be. As above I intend to plan to have a go at making a mod applying all the XML changes I can but that may have to wait until Eric has made his modwiki available (I will play around with it before then but no promises of producing something useful).
Section 1 (XML modable things)
a) Available research at 1900 (start of game).
- Firstly, gearboxes are currently limited to max 3 gears at start of play but 4 should also be available. The Mercedes 35hp (which I will reference a few times in this post) had a 4 speed gearbox and it went on sale in 1901. For this to be possible (in game) research on that gearbox would need to commence in 1900.
- The following engine layouts should be available right off the bat: Single cylinder (as it is currently), Straight 2, V2, Flat 2 and Straight 4.
* The previously mentioned Mercedes 35hp was powered by a 5.9L Straight 4 and by extension, if it was possible to make straight 4's it's possible to make straight 2's (interestingly, the first ever use of a straight 3 that I can find is the 1956 Saab 93, so the availability of this layout might need to be pushed back).
* In 1889 Daimler-Maybach released their first vehicle, powered by a V2
* Karl Benz patented the flat twin in 1896
b) Old engines are too powerful
If you take a look at this thread by Arakash he points out that it isn't actually possible to make an engine with the same stats as the Model T and actually produce that low a horsepower number. Likewise, the Benz Velo had a 1L single producing 3.5hp but the lowest possible output I can get from a 1L single is 10hp. Lastly, a 5.9L Straight 4 will put out about 45hp, well over the 35hp the Mercedes linked above made.
If it is possible to alter the back end equations (as per section 2 a below) then some of this will be fixed on its own as these old engines were all fairly large capacity and very long stroke so would loose some RPM and therefore power from the equation change.
Failing this (or possible in addition to this) my suggested fix is to have different eras of "4 Stroke Gas" engine, similar to the different eras you have for electric. Three should be enough, "Early", "Mid" and "Modern" using the world wars as the change over dates as these were generally when technology advanced the quickest. I would say that "Modern" would keep the current petrol power and efficiency setting whilst early would be set somewhere around where 2 stroke is (giving 2 stroke a further downgrade in power along the way) and slotting "Mid" right in the middle.
c) Many of the engine weights and dimensions and other numbers of different engine layouts don't add up.
- A 1.5L Straight 8 is only a little longer and actually wider than a 1.5L V8 with identical settings!
- That same 1.5L Straight 8 costs nearly 4 times as much to build but less to R&D than a 1.5L Straight 2 (I would think roughly double for both would be fairer)
- Comparing the same Straight 8 and 2 again, the 8 makes less power (see section 2 A for more on this) but gets well under half the mpg of the 2 where in reality it would probably make more power, more torque and get only slightly worse milage than the twin (and definitely better mpg/hp)
Many of these issues can be fixed with some simple tweaking of the numbers in the XML files. I would also suggest getting rid of the "Single" engine layout and simply making a 1 cylinder option for the straight engine. The change in dimensions wont be much but it'll make balancing the engines against each other much easier.
Note: All of these comparisons are made with all sliders set to max with the exception of bore and stroke which are set as equal as possible while giving as close as possible volume and the weight slider which is set to minimum.
Section 2 (things that can not be fixed in XML/back end stuff)
a) Power and torque numbers are all out of whack.
Note: I originally had this in section 1 but after doing more research I've realised it's more back end than I originally thought so I moved it.....
Comparison of different engine layouts: I went and made a bunch of 1.5L engines with all the same settings to see how the different layouts changed things and the results don't quite sit right with me. My biggest issues are as follows:
Both power and torque reduced as an engine gained cylinders. I made most of the engines with square bore and stroke but to test if this was an effect of engine stroke being too big a factor in torque I made an inline 3 with the same stroke as the single and it still produced much less torque than the single.
I think some of this can be fixed by modding XML files but I think the back end equation needs to be changed to make everything work properly. Increasing an engines stroke needs to have a greater effect on slowing down max RPM for one and overall individual cylinder volume needs to have a much bigger effect on engine efficiency. I built a 6L V8 to compare to the 1.5L V8 and power was 3.65 times greater while torque was 3.75 times greater which highlights the fact that something needs adjusting as power of such a large engine should suffer much more than torque and both numbers should suffer more than they do. I would think x4 volume and identical settings would produce something more like x2.5-3 power and x3.5 torque. (Also of note, the 98mm stroke 6L V8 only revved 68RPM slower than the 62mm stroke 1.5L V8)
b) Bore and stoke limits should be higher.
Currently the bore and stroke limits of the game seem to be 128mm each (or roughly 5'). Some examples of important cars with bigger numbers than these limits are:
-The Benz Patent-Motorwagen (recognized as the first car ever) had a stroke of 160mm.
-The previously mentioned Mercedes 35hp (which didn't sell a lot but started a battle that rapidly accelerated automotive technology) had a 140mm stroke.
-The Blitzen Benz had a 200mm stroke and a 185mm bore.
- The Bugatti Type 41 Royale had a 130mm stroke
- The Bentley 4½ Litre had a 140mm stroke.
- (If you want to make trucks possible) The Kenworth T609 is powered by this engine with a bore of 137mm and a stroke of 169mm.
.... and there are many other examples.
I'm pretty sure the Blitzen Benz is easily the biggest (on a per cylinder basis) engine ever put into a car so if you can increase the bore and stroke limits up to those numbers people will be able to duplicate it and pretty much anything else ever made including many aircraft and tank engines and even some pretty chunky marine diesels.
Sorry for the wall of text. Perhaps I should have broken that up into two posts? Meh, too late now, I've been writing this for hours so I'm just posting it as it =)
