While chassis and gearbox are quite easy to design in a way they do perform reasonably good, designing an engine is quite hard.
The per capita is very low in 1900, so engine prices should be as low as possible.
Most times i end up with an 1 hp single cylinder engine with very low sliders (except fuel efficiency) which gives excellent MPG and reasonably good reliability, but it feels somewhat gamey. Even with the "too low power penalty" an 100 MPG engine produces 25 MPG in any car. And there is no need to invest a single buck to fuel efficiency in gearbox or car as that will not increase the MPG with such a low power engine, making the car even cheaper.
There seems no point in designing an 10 hp engine as its still abysmal in power but price, reliability and especially MPG are much worse. Even for microcars 10 hp are way too low to give any benefit over 1 hp.
You would need to design an >25 hp engine but that is extrem costly to produce and limit the target market to the few very wealty.
How do you design your first engine?
I usually start with a decent 3.0l to 3.2l inline 6 with around 45HP in case i get lucky on some military pickup contracts and design a inline 3 with ~10-15HP for a phaeton.
The 1hp single-cylinder is a real weird thing. Fuel efficiency is so good, price so low and the "too slow" debuff seems to have no to very little impact on sales.
It's a cheat
I'll build single-cylinder engines with 1 hp from now on.
Just make sure that it moves, otherwise you'll sell 0. That being said, I think the base speed in 1900 is around 5mph. So if it goes 3mph, you'll be losing 40% of potential sales. You get into the 1980s where base is around 60mph, and a 1mph car would be a huge flop.
Yeah but with that single cylinder you can basically build every sort of car for around 190 $ production costs and flod the market with 799 $ cars which will get horrible reviews but sell like crazy.
(06-15-2016, 02:06 PM)Cerberus23 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah but with that single cylinder you can basically build every sort of car for around 190 $ production costs and flod the market with 799 $ cars which will get horrible reviews but sell like crazy.
Only because it takes a while for the AI to fill the markets. Eventually AI will prefill the markets before the game even begins.
(06-11-2016, 03:44 AM)Nuvag Wrote: [ -> ]While chassis and gearbox are quite easy to design in a way they do perform reasonably good, designing an engine is quite hard.
The per capita is very low in 1900, so engine prices should be as low as possible.
Most times i end up with an 1 hp single cylinder engine with very low sliders (except fuel efficiency) which gives excellent MPG and reasonably good reliability, but it feels somewhat gamey. Even with the "too low power penalty" an 100 MPG engine produces 25 MPG in any car. And there is no need to invest a single buck to fuel efficiency in gearbox or car as that will not increase the MPG with such a low power engine, making the car even cheaper.
There seems no point in designing an 10 hp engine as its still abysmal in power but price, reliability and especially MPG are much worse. Even for microcars 10 hp are way too low to give any benefit over 1 hp.
You would need to design an >25 hp engine but that is extrem costly to produce and limit the target market to the few very wealty.
How do you design your first engine?
The game really does not care about horsepower. It's more or less used for calculating top speed only.
Now what the game really do care about is torque. Fuel efficency is higly dependend upon torque, weight, and size (aerodynamic drag). Both chassis size and body size make a huge impact.
And after Eric nerfed torque output, designing engines with high torque is even more crucial.
So my first engines are basicly 2-stroke tractor engines (extremely long stroked). What type depends on wich difficulty I play on. On my current hard game i started with a S3 (Tech limitations on hard means a straight is your only viable option). Most sliders all the way down, the need to finish it in 3 months without breaking the bank was a priority (main focus was to keep the design cost down, part cost was secondary). Why 3 months you may ask. Because thats when you need your first car to be designed, to contest in all the first season racing series.
I might post a picture of the settings when I get back to my home computer.
The engine did not break any records, but was decent enough. And far better than most of the rubbish the AI designs. The AI really sucks at engine and gearbox designs, and often uses gearboxes capable of only handling a fraction of the torque the engine it's paired with puts out.
Another thing, engine size sliders should always be kept at maximum. This gives you higher HP, better reliability, better cost and only slightly higher weight. So design your engine first. Then make the chassis fit the engine, not the other way around.
Here is the first engine for my current hard game.
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That engine got used in 2 designs. A Phaeton which was really crappy and destined for a short lifespan, but it had short development, and gave me sorely needed revenue.
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The other was a crappy sportscar, since i was short on development funds I had to develop this as slow as I could (it won 00 Vent Championship wich was it's main purpose).
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The SportCrap went into sales Dec 03 and was discontinued Feb 07 and was the highest selling car at the time, with 41590 cars sold.
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(06-22-2016, 05:09 PM)Shepherd Wrote: [ -> ]The SportCrap went into sales Dec 03 and was discontinued Feb 07 and was the highest selling car at the time, with 41590 cars sold.
That's quite a fast and rapid expansion for hard mode and with a sports car. Hopefully it'll be solved with established history for the AI.
I assume you didn't have much competition in the markets/segment.
Derailing the thread a little bit now, I just posted above to show that it is possible to sell cheap engines and vehichles without the need to over engineer them.
But yes it's a very rapid expansion, that is the strategy. And I am not only selling sports cars. But I am barely breaking even in the first years because of heavy reinvestment (building factories mainly).
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No I had decent competition, but it's not that difficult to dominate the AI. The AI is dumb as a dodo, only a handfull of AI companies actually does something that makes economical sense.
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And hard really isn't that hard. The AI behaves just the same as in Normal and Easy mode. The only difference is lower starting tech, less cash, lower initial ratings. So it takes just a little bit longer. Once you get past a certain cash flow you really have no competition.
I do know that writing a good AI is extremely difficult. And getting one like this with a plethora of choices to make, to behave "humanly" certainly is not easy. So I am not critizising the AI, just saying that there is some room for improvment.
15,000 units a year in 1907 is still pretty good considering that the AI starts out with nothing and expands much more slowly than the player. Comparing it to historical numbers it's more than real life. Oldsmobile Curved Dash was the best selling vehicle pre Model T. And it only moved 19,000 models between 1901 to 1907.
So the AI isn't really the problem. (Although I agree it can be better.) The ability to expand super rapidly is. (And I bet most of that is due to insanely cheap cars.)
Anyhoo when I remove the empty world vacuum with pre-history. Your expansion rate will hopefully slow down a bit without my need of going in and balancing things.
Ive played around a bit with this car design its not been easy for me. I usually got for a sedan with a high horsies but I see torque is way more important. XD
my design are hugely based on power weight... but now I see the error in my ways lmao. I target wealthy (which may be why I go bankrupt lol)
my price usually goes
231~ I-2 for a first engine I find it gets best power (Ill do torque next time)... 8hp 40-50 nms of torque.
30 is my standard gas mileage.
And I leave material maxed out and weight low.
My chasis gears tend to be bad... I go for weight above everything else. for chasis and small. The gear box I usually go for economy 1 gear I get better mileage than you @ like 8mpgs.
22 MPH with car (torque is probably what hurts here)
I always use a t-head over others because for 2-3 dollars you get a significant bump in gas mileage and power.
I usually push out a $1000 car by 6/1/1901 and go bankrupt because I sell like 1-4 cars a month. And my profit margin is super low I usually go for %15 profit+corporate/unit costs.
(06-27-2016, 08:57 AM)Eric.B Wrote: [ -> ]Anyhoo when I remove the empty world vacuum with pre-history. Your expansion rate will hopefully slow down a bit without my need of going in and balancing things.
There might also be some willing to create preset engines, gearboxes, chassis and complete cars the AI can choose from.
Just sayin'...
I'd like to see myself loosing shares to other companies because they're just creating better cars and i'd have to find new ways to adapt to this. I barely ever get to see a report stating that i'm losing money from a build car on the long run expect it's a car purely build with racing intends. And even these are creating profit (which of course is not showing in the specific report
)
(07-20-2016, 11:50 AM)Unavailableartist Wrote: [ -> ]Ive played around a bit with this car design its not been easy for me. I usually got for a sedan with a high horsies but I see torque is way more important. XD
Well torque is half the variable for horsepower (the other being rotation.) In early game years, the amount of torque output of engines are lower compared to modern engines of the same size. As such if you have a heavy vehicle, you're going to need more torque than horsepower to move it. You can make an engine rotate all it wants, if it doesn't have the torque to push the vehicle along it's not going to matter.
Later in the game horsepower should be playing a little more important role in maintaining adequate top speeds. At which point you can reduce torque and increase RPMs.
Up until you hit the point where you're fighting terminal velocity. In which case torque again becomes important as you need to push back against the atmosphere.
Quote:my design are hugely based on power weight... but now I see the error in my ways lmao. I target wealthy (which may be why I go bankrupt lol)
Throughout history most automotive companies that targeted wealthy owners have always gone out of business or have been absorbed by other companies. While it is possible to run a hyper luxury company in GC. It is suggested to do mass market consumer vehicles to get a feel for the game before trying your hand in the high end stuff.
Quote:my price usually goes
231~ I-2 for a first engine I find it gets best power (Ill do torque next time)... 8hp 40-50 nms of torque.
30 is my standard gas mileage.
Depending on the type of vehicle you're designing, torque, top speed, hp, etc may not be that important.
Quote:I usually push out a $1000 car by 6/1/1901 and go bankrupt because I sell like 1-4 cars a month. And my profit margin is super low I usually go for %15 profit+corporate/unit costs.
Which cities are you trying to sell in? $1000 sedan should do quite well.
(07-21-2016, 03:49 AM)Cerberus23 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd like to see myself loosing shares to other companies because they're just creating better cars and i'd have to find new ways to adapt to this. I barely ever get to see a report stating that i'm losing money from a build car on the long run expect it's a car purely build with racing intends. And even these are creating profit (which of course is not showing in the specific report )
Well the AI has improved since 1.19, it will get another around of improvements toward the end of Early Access. It just takes so much time to tweak the AI, I couldn't continue to work on it without a bunch of people grumbling that there hasn't been updates.
In any event, I still have a few things planned up my sleeves for the AI. And some of the new maps will condense the playing space, thus hopefully improving AI's production output, so that if a company designs a good vehicle, it can produce enough of them.
Quote:Well torque is half the variable for horsepower (the other being rotation.) In early game years, the amount of torque output of engines are lower compared to modern engines of the same size. As such if you have a heavy vehicle, you're going to need more torque than horsepower to move it. You can make an engine rotate all it wants, if it doesn't have the torque to push the vehicle along it's not going to matter.
Later in the game horsepower should be playing a little more important role in maintaining adequate top speeds. At which point you can reduce torque and increase RPMs.
Up until you hit the point where you're fighting terminal velocity. In which case torque again becomes important as you need to push back against the atmosphere.
Well I've since modified my design a bit. I've cut back to try to make a car sell close to 2x GDP.
It winds up being a small I-2 3hp (17nm torque) motor. Chassis that, while not great, is lightened as much as possible (via weight, performance, and material). And a light 1 gear gearbox (I find that early on 2-3 gears make little difference if any... 4 gives a slight bump in speed/gas but goes over budget).
All in all it adds up to be a $440~ sedan that doesn't pass many of the Importance stars, but I think its virtually impossible with some (particularly with fuel efficiency). Set Mid-low (quality, driveablity... and safety I think pass).
Quote:Which cities are you trying to sell in? $1000 sedan should do quite well.
I usually start in Atlanta. It's close to where I'm from so I figure why not.
I max production as much as possible which gives like cars that are worth around $600-700 with corporate costs/manufacturing figure in.
I usually go for this model when I calculate the price.
(Corporate cost per unit in stock) + (Manufacturing cost per batch i.e. if 163 units were made I use this same number until I run out or make more)+ Unit value + 15% profit.
All in all the car usually goes for mid $700 to low $1000 (if my stock is low).
I have managed to turn a profit during the months I'm not producing any cars... however I never make up the cost it takes to make the cars in the first place. I watch in dismay as A.I. manages to sell like 100+ low rank Sedans at 1,500 and keep positive over all, while I lose money.... slowly. I've even tried setting my price to just under the 'competitions' price as it more than covers my costs and gives me more profit... and still doesn't work XD.
The most I've ever even sold was something like 50 cars in month (hoping I could just be positive so I can star expanding or researching new stuff to make my car better or start making another high North America demand vehicle... trucks.
(07-24-2016, 12:55 AM)Unavailableartist Wrote: [ -> ]All in all it adds up to be a $440~ sedan that doesn't pass many of the Importance stars, but I think its virtually impossible with some (particularly with fuel efficiency). Set Mid-low (quality, driveablity... and safety I think pass).
In early game years, stars don't matter as much. Being able to build something people can afford is more important. That being said. You should be able to run a profitable company easily with sedans priced up to (and even higher) than ~$2000-$3000 in 1900. Your problem is a different one.
Quote:I usually start in Atlanta. It's close to where I'm from so I figure why not.
If you're only selling vehicles in Atlanta, and not expanding to larger cities in the north, then this is your problem. Atlanta does not have the population in 1900 to support an automanufacturer. Considering a vehicle selling at 2x per capita, you're limiting your self to about 20% of the population that can afford it. (Roughly $100,000 in today's money.)
Atlanta has a population of 80,000 in 1900? Roughly 1 car per 2 people. (A household of 4, with 2 adults ~2 cars.) You're looking at a buying pool of 20,000. A new vehicle is purchased roughly every 5 years. That's 60 months. So 20,000/60 = 333 people per turn looking to buy a vehicle. You're limiting your self to 20% of the market. So 66people. Of those 66 people. Roughly 20 people give or take want a more expensive vehicle than yours. So 46 buyers in the market at your price range. Of those say 20% want a sedan as first or second choice. You're down to 9 people max. Now how many of them buy from you in Atlanta, choose not to buy a vehicle, buy used, or have one shipped from somewhere else? At best you'll get 9 sales per month in Atl.
TLDL, build a branches in New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Baltimore, etc. You know places with people that have lots of money and can afford luxury items like cars in the age before the majority of homes had electric and running water...
There is a reason almost all Auto Industry in the US was centered in the Rust Belt. And only the Detroit companies survived.
I believe you're correct. I sale slightly more than 9 cars per though. Its about 50-30 it takes 3-4 months to run out of a full batch of cars. First month might sale about 10 but it never really drops that low from then on.
So I think it's half the problem ...
I'm gonna try Atlanta 1 more time... then move somewhere with a larger pop.
As you say Detroit is a good choice... so is New Orleans, L.A.... and I suspect New York. As all those have have 100k + people. I will keep you updated.
Well, I always start in Jacksonville as it is close to where I live. Expand out with branches. You can run the company out of Atlanta, but build a branch as soon as you're ready to start selling, and ship those vehicles up there.