First suggestion post (whoa!): I think about "AirwaySim" and other...

[Corwin86]

So... I never started a forum before

I was thinking (while I was playing Gear City, PcFantacanestro and AirwaySim) how to give some ideas and "stakes", about what and what not to include to this game:

- I start saying that Gear City is simply awesome, also in BETA, and I expect the same from this future game

Examples:
- in the past there been a couple of decent airline simulator, but I think that all are now "outdated" (maybe only "Airpro 7" and "Airline 7", why always 7???, are the the only that are actually "updated", but I still have to try them http://www.airpro-game.com, http://www.airlinesimulation.com) so...
- watch especially for Web airline simulation!!!
- here there is an interesting post about some (I think, the major ones) simulation to "test" (http://www.airline-empires.com/index.php...you-tryed/)
- http://www.airwaysim.com, http://www.airline-empires.com, http://www.airlinemogul.com: these three seems to be the best actually on the market...
- DO NOT look for "Airline Sim" and "Cyber Airlines", I don't give you the specific link, because my McAfee (always be praised) saved me from an attack from these sites

General game idea:
- please do NOT create a game like "Airlines Tycoon 1 & 2": is simply crap! All these "cartoons" styles game are often dull and boring, and I (we) need a serious cool simulation
- start in 1946 (1950), end in a possible, near future (not cyberpunk style, I like science fiction, but not in an air simulation game )
- create various, challenging scenarios...
- ... and a GREAT sandbox mode (this is very, very important)

Specific suggestions:
- try (I know, is difficult) a game that can support little, small, medium, large and huge companies... What it means? It can be awesome, if you can open a very small company, and then freely decide (if you don't have fixed goals) into a larger one... and small and medium aircraft have their large and "true" world...
- have a huge database! (airplanes, but also airports, and possible routes...)
- it'a a large work to do, but I think you have to consider how the "conditions" affects routes and market (summer-winter, ex-colonies, countries that are usually "resorts" for other countries, wars, international crises...)
- ...so, try to make a "real" and "living" world! With events and other
- This, and this are good ideas...
- DO NOT have the user to fly aircraft manually! Is really annoying and impossible to do after ten single aircraft...

Last suggestion: when the game is ready, hype it, because I realized, in my little research, that there are three-four competitors for web games, but only TWO (serious one, I will surely buy them, but... God, they seems like a program for the creation of the family budget, from what they are graphically dull; and "Airline 7" cost 50, I MEAN, 50 €€€!) competitor for normal game... and there is request and a market

And it's really all, for now
I will try (I think) "Airline Empires", "Airpro 7" and "Airline 7", and with already "AirwaySim", I will have better ideas in the future

[MrX_ua]

My personal (and only) note to this.. I'd imagine an airline Sim to include companies so small, that their fleet only has 8 seaters biplane props that are more of an air-taxy or hard-to-get places routes.. But if you can afford - start with a lease on a 787

And here is a picture to support it all - an actual, active. major airline airplane .....Click to see

[Corwin86]

My personal (and only) note to this.. I'd imagine an airline Sim to include companies so small, that their fleet only has 8 seaters biplane props that are more of an air-taxy or hard-to-get places routes.. But if you can afford - start with a lease on a 787

And here is a picture to support it all - an actual, active. major airline airplane .....Click to see

Totally agreed!!!

A little update for the possible games from which to take ideas:
- "Airline Empire" is full of good ideas... but its graphically terrible, and with a management style that is horrifying! I don't care what the other says, this is the example of HOW not to code an interface for a game... I think I will forget it, and use it also for some suggestion/ideas... playing without a button to modify the routes... brrrrr

---

I have found the famous button... is huge, and it seems like a menu name, not a button for a section...
I don't really get it...

The game is actually good, maybe I found it too simple (AirwaySim seems better), but have also the "small" aircrafts to manage (and earn from, not as in AirwaySim)...

Anyhow, the interface remains ugly, i prefer to pay 3$ at month, but have fun

[Corwin86]

Ok, I have bought both "Airpro 7" and "Airline 7", the two desktop games that can be considered the competition

I have received only "Airpro 7", for now, and I have tried it...

So... the problem is that I considered it one of the most boring (attention, not "bad") game I ever played...

It have three main problems: a little choice of action, a little amount of grapichs and a little amount of information given to the user...

I know that is an independent and a smal game (I really respect Frank Schoenstedt, the developer and creator), ok, so I don't want to be too harsh, really.

I really want to play and enjoy this game... but seems a little difficult...

I know that the interface was minimal, but... I have spent 20 euros for this game!
And there is a total lack of information in all the game.
How much demand there is on a route? The only way you can know is create ALL the possible routes, and keep only the best ones...

The financial system is so simplified that goes to spans... you earn money, millions, at spans... no chart, no other information...

Differences between aircraft? There are, but not worth anything... you have to take an aircraft and keep it going with a certain occupancy rate to make it earn... stop...

Ok, let's be serious, clear and right... this is link for a game teaser/gameplay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYICXWiZLss): it last about 4 minutes (2 to set a new game, 2 for set a single turn of the game).
Watch it and think about this: there isn't anything else... the game is ALL this.
Go trought every single month/turn and create routes on this simple and plain grapichs...
No data, no feedback, no options, no charts...
For 20 euros...

I really want to understand this game, but it seems impossible...

So... I don't think you can take some serious ideas from this games (the game is so uninspired that one does not even get angry for having bought it).
Also the things that it does "quiet" well, are done better in different web based games.

I don't see any point to discuss about it...
It's simple, flat and boring.
Maybe you can watch and try it, take it as a "basis"...
But certainly can not be considered a viable competitor

Edit: ok, sorry, only a little note... The manual of this game is actually good and explain a lot of things... Like: remember that you can boost the demand on a route if you connect it with "free" flights (!!! I don't really think that you can take an airplane for free, in any country of the world ) with airports near and around... and other things like this... so you can simply take the manual, instead of the game, and take some ideas from that...

[Eric.B]

Well my ideas for Aeromogul is mainly based around Aerobiz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqGuo0ZliPI
As in simplistic design, easy to use, pretty, and robust etc.

However much like GearCity did for Motor City, I want to expand upon it. Aerobiz mainly focuses on international airports due to size limitation in an SNES cartridge. I want at least 300 airports. Thus allowing for you to run healthy domestic airlines.

Aerobiz has 4 AI, I want at least a hundred. Aerobiz has flat maps, I want Superpower 2 world map: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGjBAjn_1l8 (good example of how it works). IF this isn't possible a very high detailed flat map would suffice.

I want the amount of aircraft and the quality airport data such as in airwaysim.

Economic quality of at least GearCity level. Though probably not as micromanaged.

And that leaves us with how to handle scheduling...

[Corwin86]

I think Aerobiz can be a good start as a "base" to work on, but more I play with "AirwaySim" and a bit with "Airline Empires", I think that these two are (at the moment, I haven't still received "Airline 7" ) the best on the market today.

Do you want at least 300 airports? I want, at least, 3000 airports (possibly more)
Ok, I know it can be a "little" difficult, but, if you plan to do a game that it isn't only international flights, 300 is a small number, I think.
Today, only in Italy there are 42 (as AirwaySim said) from local to international airports... and this is a conservative number! For example, I live in Reggio Emilia, and there is a local airport with a 1400 mt. runway!

If you really want a complete (totally!) list of possible airports, you have to see this game (http://www.myairline.it/): it's, sadly, an Italian language game, but they have done a huge job to find ALL the possible airports in the world, and also for the models of airplanes selled between 1980 and 2013.

I think that, thinking about the game, you can simply do a "general" behaviour, demand and destination routes for local airports, and "hand" modify only the 500-1000 largest airports in the world cool

As we said (I and MrX) a game when you can choose to be a local, regional, national and international company (or all) can be longer to code, but surely the BEST on the market, because it doesn't exist a game like this, today.

Ok, for the number of possible IA and world map type/style, it seems charming
I agree also for the economy part.
I VERY agree also for the data taken/good as in AirwaySim, but really don't forget "MyAirline" (I can help with it, if you need)

I will also look to a method to create only-transport company (goods) or let the user to create a company that can do pax and good

Also, it can be a great idea to have airplanes not used for common routes (airplanes with less than 5-10 passenger cargo), but as tourism, little cargo or "special" airplanes (we can think about what, for now I have this "vision").

Ok, I have said enough (and I understand if something of this list will not be present in the game ).

[Eric.B]

Well I'd imagine the data for airports would be easier to add with how i'm thinking about doing them.

In GearCity, we have city data in an xml file, broken down by starting years so that the growth rates change. Those are read into SQL database, and the world map is hardcoded. My mistake orginally is not having the maps dynamically load based on the longitude and latitude. If I do that then creating an airport is as simple as entering the data into xml.

I make a pretty little gtk program that does all the formatting work, you just keyboard in all the data and ta da! As many airports as you want... All 43000 if you'd like

Of course how many we do is still up in the air. But I guarantee it'll be at least half of the worlds international airports... More if possible.

[MrX_ua]

Of course how many we do is still up in the air. But I guarantee it'll be at least half of the worlds international airports... More if possible.

The idea is that we should have all international anyway plus major-to-medium domestic for local routes ....

[Eric.B]

Of course how many we do is still up in the air. But I guarantee it'll be at least half of the worlds international airports... More if possible.

The idea is that we should have all international anyway plus major-to-medium domestic for local routes ....

Well as I was saying, if the system works how I think it would then it'll all be a matter of data entry. Hopefully we have a budget where we can pick up an intern to fill in the data. Then its' just a matter how many airports the player wants to load.

That being said, shouldn't you be in bed? Go to sleep old man!

[Corwin86]

I also control the forum every night before bed...

I just see the post from Killrob, that seems fairly interesting.

I want to say that I like this idea of many airports (that I humply asked), but think also about (when is time) about the others

[Corwin86]

Finally, I was able to download my copy of "Airline 7"...

... I must say, so far, after the bad experience with "Airpro 7", it seems pretty good (I don't really understand their prices: with a cost per copy of 20-25 euros they would really get more purchases... anyhow...).

It have a strange "mixed" graphics that sometimes quite please the user, sometimes seem to be taken by a 20 years old game...
And the interface could surely be better...
... but the rest is quite interesting!

You can start selecting a year between 1946 and 2013, and it have good number of medium-large aircraft of each period.

The simulation/options engine seems really strong; in fact, WAY better than "Airways" and "Airline-Empires".
You have a great possibilities of choices and changes, and you can (or, better, you have to) manage every aspects of the company.

It's a sort of "extreme" game: quite difficult, also only to begin with, but with a lot of data, numbers, charts, possibilities...

Really too bad for interface and graphics (and it's also quite slow to simulate) but, for the rest, talking about the "managing/simulating" style, surely the best genre game I have played so far

I think this could easily be the "range" for your future game (but don't charge 60 $ for a game, please ).

A little note: I have played only two hours so far, maybe I'll discover that the game have some serious issues, I don't know, but, for the moment, it seems ok, and perfect to get "inspiration"

[VIPERGTSR01]

I agree with adding as many airports as possible, but having the ability to add your them in manually will be good. I remember doing this with Airlines 2 a long time ago, a long with changing aircraft names to the real ones.



Oh and thanks Corwin86 for the mini review of Airlines 7, I have always been tempted to buy it but there hasn't been much info around on it and for the price they charge it has always put me off.

[Corwin86]

No problem, their price still haunt me...

But, I think it's the best (but it's not perfect) that you can now find on the market.

Only, don't be blocked by the bad interface.

[Corwin86]

Ok, I "ruined" my eyes a little more on "Airline 7".

Why... why this the interface have to be so "stupid", nasty and difficult to understand?

There is MUCH in this game that is worth of your (mine) time, but two hours of playing (and I work at least 4-5 hours a days in front of a monitor without a problem...) give me headache!

So many airplanes, routes and possibilities...

I confirm my last "judgment", there is much to "take" for a new game here, but for buyers... I don't really know if I can recommend it...

And I'm sad, because they have done the MOST difficult part (also the game engine seems ok, the results are correctly calculated, I think) and they had washed-up all with this outrageous graphic...

Really, really too bad

[Eric.B]

Games like this live and die by gui.
Looking at screenshots the gui looks cheap.
And cheap interfaces are never user friendly.

I haven't tried this game, but I do believe you that this would be its shortcoming.

[Corwin86]

...

I haven't tried this game, but I do believe you that this would be its shortcoming.

Sorry, I can write (and speak a bit) of English, but I can't really understand the meaning of this

Can you please put the sentence in another way?

[Eric.B]

...

I haven't tried this game, but I do believe you that this would be its shortcoming.

Sorry, I can write (and speak a bit) of English, but I can't really understand the meaning of this

Can you please put the sentence in another way?

Excuse my Italian, it's been a decade since I've taken Spanish so my romance language skills are a bit weak:
Airline 7 no bene, GUI e grafica no bene!
Or something like that.

Generally I said, "I have not tried the game. But I can see why you do not like the game."

[Corwin86]

Ok (also for the Italian ).

In fact, I like only a part of this game: clearly the GUI and the graphics are faulty.

But, for you future project, there is much to view here

[Corwin86]

Ok, I think "Airline-Empires.com" is one the "silliest" game I ever played...

I tried to do not make any changes, anything, after having just set up a dozen routes, and after two weeks (I haven't even logged in to check)... I have earned 30 (!) millions of $

So, this game is SO simple, that even of you don't check the situation and change something, you earn so many money that it's impossible to go bankruptcy!

I really wonder how can someone even play a game like this, that do not "punish" or get into trouble the "careless" users...

I mean, to make more money, you have only to find a "clear" route and assign an airplane, because you can make money with ANY airplane on ANY route...

I don't really understand it.

[geozero]

Anyone ever play AIR BUCKS? Now THAT was a really good sim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Bucks

Others have tried to copy, the Airline Tycoon series dumbed it down.

Go check it out.