Some suggestions for the car designing process

[SzczepanKolaczek]

Hello,

I have played Detroit, Motor City, Automation and Gear City and I like the latter the best of them all, by a huge margin. Being a financial analyst by trade and freak of the automotive history (I even run a blog about it) I admire this game more than any other I have seen!!

Especially the process of designing the car is far better here than in Automation, because it clearly shows where the trade-offs are and allows to take them into account and express your intentions in a very clear way concerning the final product you want to get. In Automation you only input raw numbers and even though I have a good idea of what they mean, it is much trickier to get what you wanted. However, there are some features from Automation which I would be extremely glad to see here.

First of all, the different carb/injection systems should definitely be included, as well as the valvetrain type. We already have the cylinder head type and many engine types which are unavailable in Automation (only Wankel engines are missing so far, but I hope they are on the to-do-list), and these features are absolutely crucial for the engine design, especially that the fuel supply system is a very easy way of making several variants of the same engine (add an extra carb or make it bigger, replace it with a SPI or MPI, mechanical or electronic, etc.). I am NOT suggesting to copy too much from Automation (fuel mixture, ignition timing, etc - for me this stuff is for the mechanics in workshops and not for a company manager), but at least these things should be there.

Also air/water cooling could be nice, but it is less important than the fuel systems and valvetrain.

For gearboxes - the planetary and preselector types could perhaps be added, as they played an important role at certain stages of the automotive history (look at the Model T, for example).

For the chassis - the suspension types are fine (even though I have not studied the modern types too much), but the brakes could be added for selection. Mechanical/hydraulic, rear-only/4-wheel, simplex/duplex drums and finally solid/vented disks. That's all, without tweaking the number of calipers and disk diameters, as the sliders do the job just fine.

At later stages of the games some electronic systems could be added: ABS, traction control, ESP, etc. Should'nt be difficult to implement and would add a lot to the gameplay. Also the emmission controls and regulations, especially in some markets, could be added.

Bodies - for me there are less important, so the current system is OK. However, it would be nice to know that a new body type is coming. Recently I have ordered a design of a new model with an old body because I had no idea that a new one would be available very soon. Of course, we never know the future, but car bodies are not prepared in a second, so we should be informed that something is on the horizon.

Given that it is far from being completed yet, I would suggest the above additions - they are still possible, I guess, and would make the game so much better!! You are as near to perfection as I have seen so far, and there is really not much to do to reach it!!

[Eric.B]

Sorry for the late reply,

I have played Detroit, Motor City, Automation and Gear City and I like the latter the best of them all, by a huge margin. Being a financial analyst by trade and freak of the automotive history (I even run a blog about it) I admire this game more than any other I have seen!!

I'm glad you're enjoying the game. Thank you for the praise!

First of all, the different carb/injection systems should definitely be included, as well as the valvetrain type.

You'll probably be interested in a mod freeman (I believe, my memory is fuzzy right now, 4am...) is working on. After mod tools are released in version 1.22, he'll hopefully release it. It includes different fuel systems and what have you if I do recall.

(only Wankel engines are missing so far, but I hope they are on the to-do-list)

Wankles do exist in the game, they're available about 10 years before their historical time. However you have to have high engine skill levels. I believe they're accessible in 1980 easy mode.

(... for me this stuff is for the mechanics in workshops and not for a company manager),

Completely agree with this point, which is why the game is designed the way it is. When I started this game I was working in the mechanical side of the auto industry (parts and repairs) the last thing I wanted to do when I got home was write code about the stuff I was doing in real life!

Suits and bean counters that run the auto industry (probably shouldn't use those terms because you're a finance guy! ) Are typically a few steps away from the actual engineering of the vehicle. Which is one major reason for the abstractness of the slider system compared to say Automation which is much more engineering focused. I wanted people to feel like they're running a GM. Not building a kit car (which is possible for most of us.)

but at least these things should be there.

Some of it may make it in, but for the most part the designer is "complete" minus some tweaking to numbers. Adding new types to existing subtypes is not difficult however. A lot of these will probably be left for the modding community since too many options is sometimes considered a bad thing. Modding them into the game is very easy. Finally some of these probably won't make it in, unless done hackishly by the modding community. I'll go through and say what I think.

Also air/water cooling could be nice, but it is less important than the fuel systems and valvetrain.

From what I've seen, fuel systems will/could be modded into fuel types. So instead of 4-stroke. You'll have Single-Barrel Carbureted Gasoline, Double-Barrel Carbureted Gasoline, and so forth.

Air/water cooling would/could probably be modded into blocks, so air cooled single, air cooled v, etc.

Neither of these will make it in officially. Because to do it correctly would require too long of a list for the normal user.

For gearboxes - the planetary and preselector types could perhaps be added, as they played an important role at certain stages of the automotive history (look at the Model T, for example).

Preselector probably will make it in officially. Dunno how I missed it. Planetary however probably won't, as my understanding is the Model T's gears would be classified as Non-synchronous transmission. Which is why you had to engage the brake to shift from lo to hi. Today planetary gears are typically used in Automatic transmissions. So I'm not sure if that style gear warrants any classification outside of those two already.

For the chassis - the suspension types are fine (even though I have not studied the modern types too much), but the brakes could be added for selection. Mechanical/hydraulic, rear-only/4-wheel, simplex/duplex drums and finally solid/vented disks. That's all, without tweaking the number of calipers and disk diameters, as the sliders do the job just fine.

These are abstracted in the braking, performance, and safety features of the game. I believe the modding community could implement it in suspension. (Possibly removing some of the lesser common types.) The proper way to handle it would be to add an entirely new subtype. Which sadly will not happen as the game is too far into development and it would require a significant amount of work to add another group.

At later stages of the games some electronic systems could be added: ABS, traction control, ESP, etc.

Once again, these are things I have abstracted away from the user. I believe these fall under the same category as "luxury items" such as choosing heaters and cd players in Detroit. While fun for a little while, you always end just just checking off all the boxes in the end as the tech becomes common. It's just easier to say, if you're safety ratings are all the way up in the 70s, you have ABS, if they're all the way down in 2010, you have ABS!

Also the emmission controls and regulations, especially in some markets, could be added.

This has came up in the past. It may work its way after the new map system is implemented (version 1.22.) However it may not be implemented due to the amount of real world data I would have to collect and the amount of time left for me to work on the game.

Bodies - for me there are less important, so the current system is OK. However, it would be nice to know that a new body type is coming.

This might be coming in the "Research Teams" part of RnD. I need some pictures of the vehicles however, and we're waiting for the artwork to be completed before we make premade vehicles which we will then use as our pictures.

Given that it is far from being completed yet, I would suggest the above additions - they are still possible, I guess, and would make the game so much better!! You are as near to perfection as I have seen so far, and there is really not much to do to reach it!!

Some of these would of been great to have a few months ago. As now most of the Car Development stuff is marked as complete. However you shouldn't fret too much, as I said the majority of what you want can be added in the matter of minutes with the mod tools (or xml if you want to dive into some code!)


Anyhoo, I hope that answers a few of your thoughts! Feel free to post anymore suggestions, questions, or comments! I'm all ears! Thanks again!

[SzczepanKolaczek]

Thank you very much for the reply. You have just added a great advantage of Gear City over Automation - you take time and effort to reply to users' remarks and suggestions.

I am very glad that the fuel systems can be implemented. 1/2/4-barrel carbs in sets of 1, 2 or 3, plus mechanical injection plus electronic single/multipoint - that should do it for gasoline engines, while indirect/direct/common-rail injection should be enough for diesels.

As far as the valve train - I think that a sufficient addition would be splitting SOHC and DOHC heads into 2 or 4 valves and adding variable timing to the latter. Would this be feasible, please?

So we are left with cooling systems and brakes. The former should be fine if you include air cooling for single, twin, inline and flat engines, other layouts can be water cooled only. Brakes, on the other hand, are really difficult (after your explanation I understand it now), but in my opinion - they are one of the most important things. Why? Being a classic car freak I have tried several oldtimers on the road, dating from anytime between 1930s and today, and I can tell that it is the brakes which have gone the longest way in the meantime. Engines, transmissions, suspension - the progress is obviously there (especially in suspension), but as far as brakes, it has been a quantum leap. This is why it would be really great to put more emphasis there.

An alternative could be a "tick", similar to the one which makes engines and gearboxes transverse - they should work fine for air cooling, 4 valves, variable timing and electronic components (however, the latter are in fact not necessary, if they cause too much mess). But again, it is not an option for the unfortunate brakes...

Planetary transmissions: if preselector type is there, it should be enough, however, planetary is something completely different than non-synchromesh - shifting is extremely easy here. In the Model T the reverse gear and the first gear could be engaged by separate pedals, and the second gear - by a hand lever which also operated the brakes, but it was not necessary to use the brake in order to shift (it was just the same lever which engaged brakes after disengaging the 2nd gear). The 1st/reverse gear pedals could "override" the second gear, so it was all very simple and did not require any skill (contrary to the non-synchronized "crash boxes"). But if it is a big problem, let's forget about planetary transmission.

And one more thing about the bodies: I know it is far too late now, and probably most users would disagree with me, because nowadays everyone wants fancy 3D models, etc., but in my opinion they are not worth the developers' effort. In such a game one will never be able to reflect the diversity of automotive desing over 12 decades. This fact lets me think that the best body-designing system was the one from... Detroit. That game had a lot of limitations and as far as mechanical components it was a pure joke, but simple, 2D drawings and choosing separate front/mid/rear part of the body, divided into 10-12 "body levels" with maybe up to 10 body styles in each of them - this was as close to being a body dessigner as you can probably get in a computer game. All the other games only propose a limited number of ready, only marginally customizeable bodies, which is understandable given the developers' effort necessary to create them, but is not very rewarding for the player. Of course, this is just my thought and I am not suggesting anything here, because I understand that nothing can be changed in this regard. I simply think that the system from Gear City / Automation takes you too much effort in relation to value for the player.

Again, thank you very much for taking your time to respond, and above all, for creating this wonderful game!! (unfortunalteu, I ony learnt about it last week, so could'nt give you my thoughts any earlier...)

[Eric.B]

Thank you very much for the reply. You have just added a great advantage of Gear City over Automation - you take time and effort to reply to users' remarks and suggestions.

I try, bigger post however tend to get slower response as I try to maximize my time in code instead of on forums.

I am very glad that the fuel systems can be implemented.

As I pointed out, pretty much everything can be modded into the game inside the current sub-components. For example combining fuel types and fuel deliveries into one selection. This however will not be done by me and will have to be done by the community as a whole.

As far as the valve train - I think that a sufficient addition would be splitting SOHC and DOHC heads into 2 or 4 valves and adding variable timing to the latter. Would this be feasible, please?

Officially no. We will be unable to do this. Modders could make additional valves however adjust valve timing would not be possible for modders and won't be officially done either.

The exception is if we make the multiplayer expansion, which is unlikely, but if we do make it, emissions and possibly valve timing (may be abstracted in a series of emissions sliders.) Will certainly make it in.

So we are left with cooling systems and brakes. The former should be fine if you include air cooling for single, twin, inline and flat engines, other layouts can be water cooled only.

Again, these won't be officially added, it'll be up to the modding community to add it if they want it. (Possibly your self after the tools are made! )

Brakes, on the other hand, are really difficult (after your explanation I understand it now), but in my opinion - they are one of the most important things.

Having driven 1920s Bentleys, 1960s Ferraris, fancy 6 figures Mercades, recently a Morgan, and many other vehicles throughout automotive history, I do understand the brakes did progress rapidly in the early years. After a certain point however brake development stalled. There hasn't been much change outside of minor subsystems in the last 60 years such as ABS or power assisted which are both a little too detailed to be added to the designer. If I were to add a sub-component for brakes it would boil down to 4-wheel drum, front disc / rear drum, 4 wheeled disc. Not very much selection. In any event it is too late to add a new sub-component group to the chassis listing. Brakes are abstracted in the performance and safetly sliders. You may be able to talk me into it in the aforementioned Multiplayer Expansion. But there are no plans to develop that while GC single player is in Early Access. Outside of that, you could very well mod it into the game. Frames for instance are pretty much fleshed out to all possible selection. Removing a few obscure ones and combining the remaining frames with brake data may be your solution. Or if you don't mind longer list, combining brake choice and suspension would be perfect. Again, not something that will be done officially, but can be done through modding.

In the Model T the reverse gear and the first gear could be engaged by separate pedals, and the second gear - by a hand lever which also operated the brakes....

Interesting to know, I have been around Model T's but never driven one.

And one more thing about the bodies: I know it is far too late now, and probably most users would disagree with me, because nowadays everyone wants fancy 3D models, etc.,

I do agree in some ways, but we are the minority. By adding even the dated 3d models we've probably sold more copies of the game than we would have otherwise. If you read our reviews, our biggest knock is typically complexity and graphics. SO it's a lose lose for a really under budget, over worked, developer such as me.

On a side note, we will have premade vehicles to choose from if you don't enjoy the designer. Just waiting on the artist to finish all the artwork.

Again, thank you very much for taking your time to respond, and above all, for creating this wonderful game!! (unfortunalteu, I ony learnt about it last week, so could'nt give you my thoughts any earlier...)

Quite welcome, and thank you for playing. Sorry we're too far into development to implement most of your suggestions! We've been around for about 5 years! Where have you been~!

[SzczepanKolaczek]

OK, thank you. I will move to the mods thread and present my proposals there to add more options to fuel type and valvetrain choice and maybe to add the brakes somehow.

BTW. Have you thought about sleeve valves (Knight engines)? It could also be an option to choose from, somewhere between the L-Head and the T-Head. But I suppose it can be modded as well.

Thank you again!!

[SzczepanKolaczek]

Studying the roadmap for future updates I have come across "warranty expenses" and "parts revenues".

I would suggest the following here:

-obviously, both of these things should depend on the reliability of cars,
-the player could get the option to decide about the warranty length (which would be a competitive advantage and influence both warranty costs and parts revenue),
-the player could be able to decide how long to supply parts for old models - longer time could cost money, but boost reputation,
-eventually in later years a calssic car center and museum could be built, which would be expensive to maintain, but increase the brand image. The juseum could even be visualized as a kind of a second showroom.

Besides, I have not found my favorite car type in the game - the GT (Europe) / Personal Luxury Car (US). The 2+2 Coupe is similar, but not the same (the GT/PLC is focused on both performance and comfort/luxury, while being expensive and prestigious).

What do you think?

[Eric.B]

Studying the roadmap for future updates I have come across "warranty expenses" and "parts revenues".

The roadmap was recently adjusted, I haven't updated the public pictures of it yet however. In any event, Warranty expenses and parts revenues were pushed back to v1.20 as it fit better with the other stuff i had planned there. (Less so with GUI focus of 1.19 has.)

So thoughts on this is welcomed, although it's pretty much already fleshed out.


I would suggest the following here:

-obviously, both of these things should depend on the reliability of cars,

Dependability and reliability, price of components, price of subcomponents, sales numbers, and maybe per capita in which they were sold will play a factor in parts revenues and warranty expenses.

-the player could get the option to decide about the warranty length (which would be a competitive advantage and influence both warranty costs and parts revenue),

This may or may not happen. It has been requested before, but I'm not sure if I will implement it. If it's implemented, it'll be in in marketing. If it's not implemented, it'll be a fixed period of time.

-the player could be able to decide how long to supply parts for old models - longer time could cost money, but boost reputation,

Probably won't happen. For the most part, OEM's will always supply you parts if you're willing to pay. However, in most cases outside of 10 years parts moves into secondary vendor market. Just because of price. Even for rarer vehicles. I spent 7 years in this industry.

-eventually in later years a calssic car center and museum could be built, which would be expensive to maintain, but increase the brand image. The juseum could even be visualized as a kind of a second showroom.

Unlikely to happen, showroom is the closest thing we have to this. There isn't much left in the art budget to add any additional "rooms" (on top of this, to add anything to the office would require to redo all the office artwork.)

Besides, I have not found my favorite car type in the game - the GT (Europe) / Personal Luxury Car (US). The 2+2 Coupe is similar, but not the same (the GT/PLC is focused on both performance and comfort/luxury, while being expensive and prestigious).

What do you think?

We won't be adding anymore vehicle types. The types we do have were pulled from the AAA's list of vehicle types. I do believe however there is a mod floating around with more European style vehicle types, such as hot hatches and sports sedans and what have you.

[SzczepanKolaczek]

Hello!!

I made my way through the game up to 1945 and then I decided to update to 1.18.7, so I have to re-start now. Here are my thoughts so far:

1) The World Wars:
-racing should definitely stop at that times,
-GDP should decline sharply and only start recovering thereafter,
-same thing with car demand: after the wars microcars should be very much sought after in Europe (till around 1960) while luxury cars shouls sell only in the US, etc. This does not seem to be reflected in the game, or am I wrong? (the demand for different car types should change more often regardless of the wars - e.g. pahetons were almost extinct by 1935),

3) Important racing series to be added: Mille Miglia, Rallye Monte Carlo, Liege-Rome-Liege marathon.

4) After a couple of game-time decades it becomes very frustrating to look for new models in car reviews/comparisons, because you find there so many obsolete models. Also, in the class challenges it is useless to include 5 generations of one model, of which 4 are out of the market...

5) Two-stroke engines seem to be wrongly balanced. They are not cheaper than any other type (which they should) and they are almost never competitive. In fact, between 1930-1970 there were a lot of 2-stroke cars which were quiet efficient (up to 100 HP / litre!!) and still cheap to make. In the game you can't reproduce it - a simple 4-stroke design is always better.

What do you think?